Jan 29Liked by Vanessa Glau, Claudia Befu, Nathan Slake, Alexander Ipfelkofer
Thanks for this lovely long post, I really enjoyed the conversation about the book. I have yet finished the book two and tried to not read the post till I finished but here I am because in all likelihood, I won't be able to finish book three before Feb 15.
I feel this is Arabian Nights in space. the draw for me was the worldbuilding and unlike most books I've read, aside Tolkien, Dune delves deeper into sands of Arrakis in its ecology and how it shapes the culture, ultimately shaping one's ways of thinking.
It sounds weird and otherworldly but it wasn't too long ago families cared about maintaining the bloodline and this book explores that aspect in a bigger picture as maintaining race. I think it's interesting to read today due to sharp declining of birth rates in some countries creating some panic over the ethnic group would wither away; Japan and Korea such example. Such notion is not really a thing for North Americans since this is a new continent with short history of melting pot of people and culture from the old world. Thus our understanding of nation and ethnicity are not directly tied but in the old world that is the case and Herbert must have taken that as fantastic coming from the new world (American).
So far I like the exploration of the cultures around water and the language Herbert uses to show how Fremen think and do is shaped by their ecosystem; lizard dung must have near zero water because it's used as an insult. I somehow wish we can explore the world more.
um, on a side chuckle on Nathan's second point of saying Ums and sounds, I used to write that in my short stories when I was young because that's what I read in Dune. It's irritating and oddly refreshing for me because there are so many books about how people in the book don't talk like we do but in Dune they somewhat do, and that difference somewhat makes it unique.
I was refreshing to read your comments and insights about the book and looking forward to the third one!
Jan 17Liked by Vanessa Glau, Claudia Befu, Nathan Slake, Alexander Ipfelkofer
Fantastic work folks! These collaborations are filled with great insights and I enjoy that you allow your personalities to come through (at least what I envision your personalities to be). The format reminds of the mid-point break in a graduate lit class, when the discourse continues but without the pedantic structure of a lecture and discussion. Keep it up!
Feb 26Liked by Claudia Befu, Nathan Slake, Alexander Ipfelkofer
Sorry for the late read, I tried to finish the third book but I couldn't and I am glad I wasn't the only one who dozed off in the sands of Dune.
The more I read the series the more I compared the book with the T.E Lawrence's story and the movie itself because Dune is a planet ruled by external power who extorted the spice and its people for their own gains. We are looking into this world from the viewpoint of Paul who is thrusted into this world not by his choice but by the grand design of Bene Gesserit, kinda. When I read it decades ago I never had this understanding so it didn't jump out to me but book three, I don't even recall reading it, felt rushed to tie the stories up nicely to give Paul the Emperor's throne.
I really resonated with Claudia's points where the book is mostly about worldbuilding and that's where most of us fell in love with and I think it reaches its pinnacle in early book 2 and falls off afterwards because the novelty wore off or the Herbert didn't really put more emphasis in it towards the end.
I also found it interesting that all the houses are related, like the nobilities and royal bloodlines of Europe and hence nobody's really sin free in this sandy planet.
I liked the discussion of the villain and initially we were positioned to dislike Harkonnen because we are rooting for Paul and he was young when it happened so the view point might be skewed. I might be cynical but Herbert wanted to soften the villain aspect in the later books by introducing various things like both houses are related and they are all in a sense a victim of circumstances and nobody can break the chain.
Would I read the later books? I am unsure but I am certainly interested in revisiting the dune games again because they explore more of the dune itself and how others envisioned the Arrakis. The style of writing is certainly not for me.
Thank you all for doing this awesome collaborative work!
Jan 20Liked by Claudia Befu, Nathan Slake, Alexander Ipfelkofer
Thanks for the tip on Sabres of Paradise - bought and added to reading list. As a Muslim reading Dune, of course I caught the Islamic and Arabic references and terms - makes sense it's inspiration is from the struggles of Caucasian.
Jan 17Liked by Claudia Befu, Nathan Slake, Alexander Ipfelkofer
This is me, too:
Nathan: Pretty much how I feel after a double shot of espresso.
🤣
Lucky us!
This post has made me intrigued about reading the monster book again, although it's also interesting reading this after only viewing the film. Fremen water ecomonics?? A reluctant messiah? Anyway, I'll probably see the next film first. Thanks for sharing all your insights.
Jan 15Liked by Claudia Befu, Nathan Slake, Alexander Ipfelkofer
Well, I think I agree with most of the comments about Book 2. I found it far superior to book 1 and learning about Arrakis and the Fremen was really engaging. I think I might have mentioned in the previous entry but it read like it was written by an entirely different author to book one! The world building is really well done and explaining how people survive on a desert planet and worship life giving water was, for the most part, handled brilliantly
There were a few moments that gave me pause but that’s probably again just reflecting the time in which the book was written particularly making Paul the leader of the Fremen when he only seems to want to turn them into a terrorist organisation, but again I think this was mentioned in all your comments
Still don’t like Paul much and, as I’ve read into book 3, his arrogance is coming to the fore again which is already annoying
Anyway, this was a good book and hints at what maybe the whole story could have been like
Thanks to you all for doing this. It’s good fun 👍🏼😁
Jan 15Liked by Claudia Befu, Nathan Slake, Alexander Ipfelkofer
I have not read Book Two, so no badge for me! However, I did watch “Jodorowsky’s Dune”, do I get credit for that? (Sorry, long comment to come...)
It was a superb documentary, presenting a compelling and convincing story of the greatest movie never made. Alejandro Jodorowsky speaks with tremendous passion about the project and his vision of art in general, as do various people involved in the project or its admirers. He definitely intended it to be more spiritual and psychedelic, as Claudia said, like a trip without drugs—certainly an adaptation rather looser than Denis Villeneuve’s. He himself describes his film as a prophet, a film to open the mind and change perceptions, a film important for humanity! It feels hard not to be swept along with his vision.
Funnily enough, Jodorowsky had not yet read the book when he decided to adapt it. This is a common theme throughout the film—most people involved seemed not to have read it at all, but were convinced by his script or simply his enthusiasm and charisma. Perhaps if they had, they would have been less interested! (I wonder whether Villeneuve’s passion drew people in a similar way to his version.)
The whole process of trying to make the film has a mythical quality. He emerges from the castle (where he wrote the script!) into the world and begins to assemble his “spiritual warriors”, those who would aid him in his quest to make the film. There are chance encounters, books and comics serendipitously discovered, people are dazzled and dazed and drawn to Paris, producing brilliantly appealing and weird designs. He travels the world in pursuit of his chosen musicians and actors, chasing Salvador Dalí from New York to Paris to Barcelona (and answering his cryptic question about finding a clock in the sand; this definitely felt like a test for a hero’s quest). How reliable are all of these stories? How much chance was actually involved? It does not really matter, I suppose; the documentary does not care. In the moment, I believed everything, although now I have my doubts—surely the myth has grown in the telling over the years? However, if I were to watch it once more, I am sure I would be convinced all over again.
Everything was ready to begin, but they went to seek the last $5 million of the budget from Hollywood, armed with multiple copies of the most fascinating artefact in the film—the “Dune” storyboard. It has the air of a holy book—a massive tome, produced from the script and drawings made by the spiritual warriors. In these images, the scale and ambition of the project are readily apparent. Certain key scenes are also partially animated on screen, giving some idea of what the effect could have been (further aided by the excellent synthesiser soundtrack).
However, it seems like the personality and imagination that so inspired other artists did rather the opposite to the accountants. The studios wanted an on-budget film running to a nice ninety minutes, but he wanted it to be twelve hours—twenty hours! Actually, this seems to have been a vast exaggeration, instead emphasising that he was uncompromising about his dream remaining unchanged, under his complete creative control, but nobody wanted to take on that risk.
In a way that is perfect for the narrative, his film was killed, but in a manner that mirrors its own intended ending. Yes, they didn’t do it—but the failure was creative and spawned yet more creativity. The group he assembled went on to make “Alien”, without which there might have been no “Blade Runner” and so on and so on. The documentary also shows shots from yet more films, matching those up images from the “Dune” storyboard bible, showing similarities and clear references to its images. Some of these comparisons were perhaps less convincing than others, but even if all these films were not directly inspired by the book, it is easy to agree that it was something truly ahead of its time.
For his own career, he was also able to use some of the art and ideas in comics too. It turns out that he did make a couple of films after the failure of “Dune”, but was then quiet for a very long time, until the documentary reunited him with his erstwhile producer and he has made a few more since, although nothing of this scale.
All in all, the documentary was very entertaining and I would definitely recommended it. Also, despite some sense of melancholy at what has been lost (or at least what might have been), I found it rather inspiring. Paraphrasing slightly, Jodorowsky urges everyone to have the greatest ambition possible. If you fail, it is not important. If you want to make the most fantastic art: try.
Thanks for this lovely long post, I really enjoyed the conversation about the book. I have yet finished the book two and tried to not read the post till I finished but here I am because in all likelihood, I won't be able to finish book three before Feb 15.
I feel this is Arabian Nights in space. the draw for me was the worldbuilding and unlike most books I've read, aside Tolkien, Dune delves deeper into sands of Arrakis in its ecology and how it shapes the culture, ultimately shaping one's ways of thinking.
It sounds weird and otherworldly but it wasn't too long ago families cared about maintaining the bloodline and this book explores that aspect in a bigger picture as maintaining race. I think it's interesting to read today due to sharp declining of birth rates in some countries creating some panic over the ethnic group would wither away; Japan and Korea such example. Such notion is not really a thing for North Americans since this is a new continent with short history of melting pot of people and culture from the old world. Thus our understanding of nation and ethnicity are not directly tied but in the old world that is the case and Herbert must have taken that as fantastic coming from the new world (American).
So far I like the exploration of the cultures around water and the language Herbert uses to show how Fremen think and do is shaped by their ecosystem; lizard dung must have near zero water because it's used as an insult. I somehow wish we can explore the world more.
um, on a side chuckle on Nathan's second point of saying Ums and sounds, I used to write that in my short stories when I was young because that's what I read in Dune. It's irritating and oddly refreshing for me because there are so many books about how people in the book don't talk like we do but in Dune they somewhat do, and that difference somewhat makes it unique.
I was refreshing to read your comments and insights about the book and looking forward to the third one!
Fantastic work folks! These collaborations are filled with great insights and I enjoy that you allow your personalities to come through (at least what I envision your personalities to be). The format reminds of the mid-point break in a graduate lit class, when the discourse continues but without the pedantic structure of a lecture and discussion. Keep it up!
Sorry for the late read, I tried to finish the third book but I couldn't and I am glad I wasn't the only one who dozed off in the sands of Dune.
The more I read the series the more I compared the book with the T.E Lawrence's story and the movie itself because Dune is a planet ruled by external power who extorted the spice and its people for their own gains. We are looking into this world from the viewpoint of Paul who is thrusted into this world not by his choice but by the grand design of Bene Gesserit, kinda. When I read it decades ago I never had this understanding so it didn't jump out to me but book three, I don't even recall reading it, felt rushed to tie the stories up nicely to give Paul the Emperor's throne.
I really resonated with Claudia's points where the book is mostly about worldbuilding and that's where most of us fell in love with and I think it reaches its pinnacle in early book 2 and falls off afterwards because the novelty wore off or the Herbert didn't really put more emphasis in it towards the end.
I also found it interesting that all the houses are related, like the nobilities and royal bloodlines of Europe and hence nobody's really sin free in this sandy planet.
I liked the discussion of the villain and initially we were positioned to dislike Harkonnen because we are rooting for Paul and he was young when it happened so the view point might be skewed. I might be cynical but Herbert wanted to soften the villain aspect in the later books by introducing various things like both houses are related and they are all in a sense a victim of circumstances and nobody can break the chain.
Would I read the later books? I am unsure but I am certainly interested in revisiting the dune games again because they explore more of the dune itself and how others envisioned the Arrakis. The style of writing is certainly not for me.
Thank you all for doing this awesome collaborative work!
I have completed books one and two! I’ll finish reading through this letter and then come back to add some of my own thoughts.
Thanks for the tip on Sabres of Paradise - bought and added to reading list. As a Muslim reading Dune, of course I caught the Islamic and Arabic references and terms - makes sense it's inspiration is from the struggles of Caucasian.
This is me, too:
Nathan: Pretty much how I feel after a double shot of espresso.
🤣
Lucky us!
This post has made me intrigued about reading the monster book again, although it's also interesting reading this after only viewing the film. Fremen water ecomonics?? A reluctant messiah? Anyway, I'll probably see the next film first. Thanks for sharing all your insights.
Well, I think I agree with most of the comments about Book 2. I found it far superior to book 1 and learning about Arrakis and the Fremen was really engaging. I think I might have mentioned in the previous entry but it read like it was written by an entirely different author to book one! The world building is really well done and explaining how people survive on a desert planet and worship life giving water was, for the most part, handled brilliantly
There were a few moments that gave me pause but that’s probably again just reflecting the time in which the book was written particularly making Paul the leader of the Fremen when he only seems to want to turn them into a terrorist organisation, but again I think this was mentioned in all your comments
Still don’t like Paul much and, as I’ve read into book 3, his arrogance is coming to the fore again which is already annoying
Anyway, this was a good book and hints at what maybe the whole story could have been like
Thanks to you all for doing this. It’s good fun 👍🏼😁
I have not read Book Two, so no badge for me! However, I did watch “Jodorowsky’s Dune”, do I get credit for that? (Sorry, long comment to come...)
It was a superb documentary, presenting a compelling and convincing story of the greatest movie never made. Alejandro Jodorowsky speaks with tremendous passion about the project and his vision of art in general, as do various people involved in the project or its admirers. He definitely intended it to be more spiritual and psychedelic, as Claudia said, like a trip without drugs—certainly an adaptation rather looser than Denis Villeneuve’s. He himself describes his film as a prophet, a film to open the mind and change perceptions, a film important for humanity! It feels hard not to be swept along with his vision.
Funnily enough, Jodorowsky had not yet read the book when he decided to adapt it. This is a common theme throughout the film—most people involved seemed not to have read it at all, but were convinced by his script or simply his enthusiasm and charisma. Perhaps if they had, they would have been less interested! (I wonder whether Villeneuve’s passion drew people in a similar way to his version.)
The whole process of trying to make the film has a mythical quality. He emerges from the castle (where he wrote the script!) into the world and begins to assemble his “spiritual warriors”, those who would aid him in his quest to make the film. There are chance encounters, books and comics serendipitously discovered, people are dazzled and dazed and drawn to Paris, producing brilliantly appealing and weird designs. He travels the world in pursuit of his chosen musicians and actors, chasing Salvador Dalí from New York to Paris to Barcelona (and answering his cryptic question about finding a clock in the sand; this definitely felt like a test for a hero’s quest). How reliable are all of these stories? How much chance was actually involved? It does not really matter, I suppose; the documentary does not care. In the moment, I believed everything, although now I have my doubts—surely the myth has grown in the telling over the years? However, if I were to watch it once more, I am sure I would be convinced all over again.
Everything was ready to begin, but they went to seek the last $5 million of the budget from Hollywood, armed with multiple copies of the most fascinating artefact in the film—the “Dune” storyboard. It has the air of a holy book—a massive tome, produced from the script and drawings made by the spiritual warriors. In these images, the scale and ambition of the project are readily apparent. Certain key scenes are also partially animated on screen, giving some idea of what the effect could have been (further aided by the excellent synthesiser soundtrack).
However, it seems like the personality and imagination that so inspired other artists did rather the opposite to the accountants. The studios wanted an on-budget film running to a nice ninety minutes, but he wanted it to be twelve hours—twenty hours! Actually, this seems to have been a vast exaggeration, instead emphasising that he was uncompromising about his dream remaining unchanged, under his complete creative control, but nobody wanted to take on that risk.
In a way that is perfect for the narrative, his film was killed, but in a manner that mirrors its own intended ending. Yes, they didn’t do it—but the failure was creative and spawned yet more creativity. The group he assembled went on to make “Alien”, without which there might have been no “Blade Runner” and so on and so on. The documentary also shows shots from yet more films, matching those up images from the “Dune” storyboard bible, showing similarities and clear references to its images. Some of these comparisons were perhaps less convincing than others, but even if all these films were not directly inspired by the book, it is easy to agree that it was something truly ahead of its time.
For his own career, he was also able to use some of the art and ideas in comics too. It turns out that he did make a couple of films after the failure of “Dune”, but was then quiet for a very long time, until the documentary reunited him with his erstwhile producer and he has made a few more since, although nothing of this scale.
All in all, the documentary was very entertaining and I would definitely recommended it. Also, despite some sense of melancholy at what has been lost (or at least what might have been), I found it rather inspiring. Paraphrasing slightly, Jodorowsky urges everyone to have the greatest ambition possible. If you fail, it is not important. If you want to make the most fantastic art: try.